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orion HIPPOLYTUS EMBROIDERS vs. DETAILS
Dear Asia:
I am not so terribly tied to the idea that Hyppolytus had another source
available to him that I can't live without the idea. But there do seem
to be some strange elements to the Hyppolytus writings that are best
explained by another source.
1) Unless it is some aspect of the translation I have, the Hyppolytus
writing is written as though it is STILL describing active factions of
the Essenes. Josephus would have been writing AFTER at least SOME of
these factions would be suppressed, if not gone. For example, the
description of the Sicarii by Josephus would have been written after the
Sicarii would have been no longer able to kill uncircumcised philosophers
of religion.
2) If Hyppolytus DID get his description of this most brutal faction
from Josephus, and if Josephus has been edited by later copiests, why
would the later copyists spend any effort making the Sicarii sound nicer
than Hyppolytus does? If my memory serves me, Josephus and the other
writers are MUCH less detailed about how the "sicarii" faction operate.
Would Hyppolytus INVENT a whole modus operandi?
3) It seems JUST as troublesome to assume that Hyppolytus HAD to get his
information from Josephus, as it is to assume the reverse.
CONCLUSION?:
Perhaps it would be best to say that Hyppolytus used his OWN sources, now
unknown, and Josephus wrote his writings from scratch? That way we don't
have to get stuck on the idea that Josephus wasn't original.
Pursuing an Approximation of the Truth,
George Brooks
On Thu, 24 Sep 1998 18:29:15 +0200 asia@checkpoint.com writes:
>Hello - my apologies, I was away from my mail.
>
>I am a bit surprised at the question, since I assume that your theory
(that Hyppolytus had another source available to him, now unknown) surely
also rests on the feeling that there are extra bits in the account, not
directly mentioned in the sources we now know.
>
>As to what I said - see for example book IV/18, passage on women :
>
>"As far as women are concerned, though it is necessary to be attentive
to their benevolent advice, they (Essene) have no trust in them (women);
they in no way confide in women"
>
>The notion that "it is necessary to be attentive to their benevolent
advice" is indeed not found in any of the known sources, however, rather
than assume that Hippolytus had an extra source for this item, I would
>think he was simply less misogynist than the writers he was quoting, and
>tried to soften the sentiment expressed, without, however, changing it
>radically. It seems to me that all Hippolytus' innovations on the >known
>sources are items of this order. If you disagree, could you point out
>some >particular thing that, to you, definitely suggest the existence of
an extra source?
>
>
>Best regards, Asia
>
>
>
>At 06:12 PM 9/22/98 -0400, you wrote:
>>
>>TO: Asia Lerner
>>
>>Could you please elaborate about his extravagance regarding the
>>Saduccees?
>>
>>And what do you think he has embroidered on the lengthy passage
>regarding
>>the Essenes?
>>
>>George.X.Brooks@Juno.Com
>>
>>
>>
>>On Mon, 14 Sep 1998 11:28:49 +0200 asia@checkpoint.com writes:
>>>At 08:22 PM 9/8/98 -0400, you wrote:
>>>>You asked if Hippolytus was copying from Josephus. Once you read
>the
>>>>text, I think you will believe that Josephus and Hippolytus were
>>>writing
>>>>from some PRIOR text.
>>>
>>>This very same Hippolytus is a corner stone of Del Medico's "The
>Myth
>>>of
>>>The Essenes". Del Medico's theory is that Hippolytus' text is the
>>>source of
>>>the Essene passages in Josephus, these passages being a late (3-4th
>>>century) insertion, not written by Josephus originally.
>>>
>>>On my part, it seems to me that there are few things in Hippolytus
>>>that
>>>cannot be derived from one of the Big Three : Philo, Josephus and
>>>Pliny,
>>>and the notion of an original source prior to Josephus and
>Hippolytus
>>>seems
>>>unnecessary. Hippolytus simply has a tendancy for embroidering on
>his
>>>sources - this is as obvious in the passage on Sadduccees as it is
>in
>>>the
>>>passage on the Essenes.
>>>
>>>
>>>All best, Asia Lerner
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