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Re: orion Orion Sadducees (MMT) et al, Part 2

Dale Cannon wrote:

> reply no. 2
>
> I guess I doubt now that Yeshua was really the originator of
> Christianity.  I'm certain he did not want the "Christian ity" we have
>
> today.

    Certainly Hellenistic Christianity would have been foreign to
Yeshuaand considered pagan by him.  If I can borrow the word
"Christianity"
momentarily to anachronistically refer to the style of
Enochian/apocalyptic/
messianic Judaism as seen in some of the DSS and pseudepigrapha, I
would go a step further and say that "Christianity" existed before
Yeshua.
Excuse me a minute while I go place a lightning rod on the roof (g).

> I'm also certain -- it has to be logical -- that he was taught -- he
> quoted the Torah at length -- had a knack for cutting to the heart of
> a
> matter rather than running around it -- building layers upon the
> substance at the heart.  -- I guess we're all searching for orgins --
> like how close are Yeshua's teachings to the Essenes'?

    That seems like a mixed bag to me too.  Very close in some...far
apart inothers...and also a sharing of terminology in some that was once
considered
exclusive to Christianity.  On the other hand, how many "sub-sects" of
Essenes were there?  Were the fellers in the Essene Quarter of Jerusalem

identical to the fellers at Qumran?  How about the Essenes in the
Galilee or
the ones in Syria or Egypt (Therapeutae)?  Were the Essenes of 4Q521's
single
messiah a different "subsect" than the Essenes of 1Q33's two messiahs?

    I have all questions and no answers for which reason I subscribe to
this list
and hungrily devour the journals.  I am so delighted that after so many
years
there is now a large number of extremely talented and learned scholars
working
long and hard hours to sort some of this out, many on this list.  I also
appreciate
the time they spend here not only in "professional" dialog with each
other but
also with us "amateurs."

> what variances do we find in 1st C CE  writings -- among the DSS, for
> instance -- and what does this tell us?

    This interests me too and I hope the pros out there respond.

> from what root did Yeshua derive his teachings?

    Personally, I see him as an Hillelic Pharisee with an Essenic bent.

> using the term "Proto-Christianity", I liken it to "proto-humans", in
> an
> evoutionary sense -- that which gave rise to, in other words.
>

    That's the context at which I take it.  In that sense I do not
believe thereare, or ever were, "Christian" writings in the DSS, but
that some of the
Testimentary and Wisdom material...and certainly 4Q521 rose from a
genre of thought into which "proto-Christianity" fit very well.

    To the REAL DSS scholars on the list...keep on working!  There are
mant *outside* of academia who appreciate your work and wait hungrily
for your pubs.

Jack Kilmon
jpman@accesscomm.net