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Re: orion Orion Sadducees (MMT) et al, Part 1

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Yirmiyahu Ben-David wrote:

> At 13:05 16/07/97 -0500, Jack Kilmon wrote:
> >If we utilize the term "Christian" for those immediate followers of
> Yeshua,
>
> No.  Continuity between Christianity and this period must be
> demonstrated,
> not assumed.

    First, this is getting a bit afield from Dale's original question
regarding thepresence of "proto-Christians" near Damascus.  Since Orion
is a forum for
the scholarly discussion of the DSS and the people of the DSS, I assume
that underlying Dale's question (and Dale can qualify this) was a
putative
connection between the "DSS people" and "proto-Christians" defining the
term as PRWTOJ, the "FIRST" in time or place, in any succession.  The
"continuity" between the period of those that were *first* (the
immediate
surviving followers of Y'shua and the Jamesian community of Netzarim)
is indeed in the form of a "stemma" from an historical standpoint
regardless
of the directions taken in the development of Christologies in the
Hellenistic
and Gentile arenas.

> >In this format, it is very likely that  "Christianity" in that sense,
>
> preceded Yeshua in >the form of the style of Enochian/Messianic
> Judaism into
> which they fit.
>
> This undefined "format" and "sense" is not Christianity.  Define some
> terms
> precisely, then use them consistently.

    Please note that "Christianity" is in quotes.  I thought it was
clear that I wasreferring to a genre within Judaism that can be
exemplified by some of the DSS
texts as well as some of the pseudepigraphal writing of the time...a
genre in
which those that were *first* in succession (and perhaps the DSS people)
found
themselves.

> >This is why I prefer the term "Yeshuine Judaism."
>
> historical name of this sect is Netzarim.  Now some regularly accuse
> me of
> mixing "my religion" into this because I happen to believe the
> Netzarim were
> "correct."  That's ad hominem.

Not really

>  This is no excuse to exclude historical
> evidence and documentation about the sect which virtually everyone
> recognizes as a key player in this period just because it comes from
> me and
> I happen to believe it.  My beliefs don't invalidate historical
> evidence,
> documentation, nor logic.

No, but it does "interpret" them.

> >    I think the DSS texts clearly reflect disputation on "legitimate
> Judaism" during >the 2nd temple period.
>
>   There was no disputation "on 'legitimate Judaism'"
> during this period.

    Of course there was.....sometimes violent.

> (Continues in part 2)
>
Jack Kilmonjpman@accesscomm.net