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Re: The language question



Asia Lerner:

	>Whprecisely does this mean? All words exept "shevaqtani" are Hebrew.
	How does one determine that "shevaqtani" is "an Aramaic rendering of Hebrew?"
	rather than Hebrew? Also - are there reasons to beleive that "eloi" is more
	Aramaic than "eli?"<

	
Judith Romney:

	My dictionaries tell me that the verb sh-b-q is not used in pre-talmudic Hebrew


AL:

I am not sure, now that I reread the previous posts, why are we arguing 
about "shavaqtani' - the transliterated word, in the text of the Gospels,
is "sabashtani" - wich is not precisely Hebrew, and neither is it Aramaic. 
It does have a Hebrew form to it, so I guess its reasonable enough to believe
that due to a kind of "broken telephone" effect [no offence] an original 
Hebrew word was converted into abrakadabra. Btw - can you tell me whether this
word also resembles a correct Aramaic grammatic form? If so, what is that 
form?


JR:
	Actually, I have often wondered whether the Greek sabachthani actually
	transliterates Hebrew zebaXtani, in which case Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani would
	mean (very plausibly both in context and in Christian theology) "My God, why
	hast thou SACRIFICED me."  Does anybody know whether this has been suggested
	anywhere in the literature?

AL:
Not that I know of, but this is certainly not implausible.


JR:
	Also, if he is quoting from Psalms, why change from 'azavtani to shebaqtani?

Well, whether this is, or is not, a quotation from the psalms is entirely
arguable, though the Greek translation that follows certainly prompts you
to think so.

	
JR:	
	As for the Eloi version, I had always assumed this would be a transliteration
	of elohi, which is Aramaic for "My God."  Of course one could read the sames
	Hebrew letters as elohAI, which is Hebrew for "My God".... the possibilities
	are endless.


AL:
Elohi = my god, in Hebrew
Elohai = my gods, but because of the convention of addressin God in plural,
this is the term that used, as in "Elohei Israel." On the other hand, "Elohi"
is a perfectly correct Hebrew word, and it is certainly not impossible that
someone should thus address the Lord. Furthermore, since both "Eli" [btw -
also in singular] and "Elohi" appear in the text, how much can you deduce?


JR:
	And, as someone just reminded us, we also have marana tha, which, along with
	talitha, is clearly Aramaic.


AL:

But Paul's native language is a tottaly different question. Note, btw, that 
"takumi" is a Hebrew verb also, though I am not sure in this case what "Tali"
would be - maybe "ta'li, takumi?" "Rise and get up" Btw - is "thalita" an
Aramaic word? If so, could you tell me what it means?


JR:
	Granted that the evidence is somewhat equivocal, it still seems on balance to
	support the hypothesis that these are renderings of Aramaic rather than Hebrew.


AL:

Well, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. It seems to me that to 
authenticate this claim you would have to show that the majority of "direct
quotations" are in Aramaic. So far, I do not see that there is even one which
is uncontrovercially Aramaic.


Best, Asia